There may be errors in spelling, grammar, and accuracy in this machine-generated transcript.

Isaac Heller: Hey, everyone, this is Isaac. I'm CEO at Trulion. And today on AI: Accounting, Intelligence. We'll be talking with real people about real things related to AI and the impact on the accounting industry. Stay tuned.

Isaac Heller: All right. I'm excited to be here with Mike Manalac. Did I get it right?

Mike Manalac: You got it right.

Isaac Heller: First [00:00:30] time Mike and I, we've been pen pals online. We got to hang out at the AICPA in Vegas last week. It wasn't in one of those clubs or the strip. It was on the convention floor, which was still which is still pretty cool, but, um, it had a good time. And, you know, before this, we started recording. Mike was just saying, let's have some fun, so let's have some fun. How you doing?

Mike Manalac: I'm doing good. Isaac. Thank you for having me. Uh, I know that the last time we chatted, we had a good [00:01:00] conversation, and I've been a big fan of like some of the pod episodes that you've had and going so, uh, super excited to be able to join you and the the truly in crowd here.

Isaac Heller: Amazing. So this is the accounting intelligence show. Um, you know, we've we've done probably a couple dozen of these. And I'm excited to welcome Mike and Mike from accounting to the show. But before we like, I'll just tell everyone who's listening, who's watching. Um, [00:01:30] Mike is what I would call an influencer. An accounting influencer. That your own voice, your own style. That's awesome. It's Mike from Accounting Comm, and I'm going to Mike does cartoons about accounting. We're going to jump into that stuff later. But, uh, before we do, I mean, Mike, like what? What? Tell us the story. Like, how did you how did you get, like, where where are you? Where are we talking from? And and how do we get to this day?

Mike Manalac: Yeah. Um, Again, thanks for the quick intro, but I'm from Baltimore, [00:02:00] Maryland. East coast of the US. Uh, grew up there, then moved to the West Coast. Was was living in San Francisco for a while, commuting down to Silicon Valley for about four years. Uh, and then I moved to Chicago. So I've kind of done the East Coast, West Coast, Midwest thing. So I'm in Chicago now, uh, with my wife and my three year old. And yeah, that's that's kind of where I'm dialing in from. Uh, here. I imagine a lot of your audience will resonate with maybe some of my path, [00:02:30] but kind of coming through the public accounting ranks through to industry and fortune 500. So. Happy to dive into any of that. Whatever you think is, uh, most interesting to maybe the audience.

Isaac Heller: Well, I mean, let's do it. You covered the whole, you know, breadth of America. I'm from I'm from Texas. And I went to New York, so I went south to north. You kind of went east west and then compromise. But yeah, I mean, kind of. How'd you get started? Maybe even dial it back. Did you fall [00:03:00] in love with accounting as a child or stumble into it, you know, in university and then. And then from there?

Mike Manalac: Yeah. I mean, I was one of those, uh, lost pups in college where I didn't know what I wanted to major in, but I was actually pretty good at accounting. You know, not that it was like calling me, but I felt a lot of other people were struggling with accounting, and it somehow clicked. Uh, and maybe that's kind of when I figured, hey, you know, maybe I'm a numbers guy, you know, and I can do something in that field. And, uh, so that's kind [00:03:30] of what brought me into accounting, uh, took a more traditional path that I think a lot of people, you know, that are listening will relate to. But I started out, uh, at a small firm at an internship, uh, under 50 person firm. From there, I realized I wanted something bigger. Moved into a top 20 firm with a firm named Cohnreznick. And then from there went a little bigger to Big Four, where I was. I spent some time with PwC. That's about a decade there, where I was on the audit side of the House and, [00:04:00] you know, enjoyed it, but also was very much interested in working for the clients, not necessarily auditing the clients, uh, maybe kind of moving in house. So, uh, I wanted to go for I kind of had this idea bigger is better. And I looked at the fortune 500 list, and the top of the list was Walmart. And next thing you know, I'm, uh, working on their e-commerce accounting team, uh, for Walmart.com, so that that was out in San Francisco, just shot, uh, south of San Francisco [00:04:30] and San Bruno. Uh, got a little got my feet wet with what's going on in the industry side of things. Really loved e-commerce. Um, but I was also it's the office was right across the street from the YouTube headquarters in San Bruno, which is a Google company.

Mike Manalac: And I would always look across the street saying, oh, it'd be cool to like work over there sometime. And, uh, from there made the move to Google. And that was 7 to 8 years ago. Uh, I joined in, uh, 2017 as part of [00:05:00] the revenue accounting team is basically supporting Google search and YouTube and some of our display advertisements. And I was based out of the Sunnyvale, um, offices, which is just in that Mountain View headquarters area. And then they opened an office in Chicago, maybe four years, five years ago, uh, as a headquarters for finance. And they were looking for people to volunteer to kind of get that up and running. So I came over when my team was there was only one other person on my team at the time. [00:05:30] And now the team has grown to 20. So it's we've seen a big, big ton of growth in Chicago. Uh, not all of them are reporting to me, but I have a chunk of people reporting to me in Chicago, some in LA. So I report to a manager in the Bay area. So that's sort of been my journey. But it's it's been a rewarding one. And I feel like I've seen a lot across public accounting and in industry, and really along the way found what I liked, what I didn't like about the accounting profession, and slowly inched my way into more of [00:06:00] the stuff that I do like and less of the stuff that I don't like. And that's kind of what brought me here today. And that's why I've. I've been with the company now for 7 to 8 years.

Isaac Heller: That's awesome. Well, your your voice and your kind of vibe is, I think, much appreciated in the accounting industry. And we'll get into that. But I gotta drop a few Chicago bombs because I just, uh, finished the most recent season of The Bear. Are you watching?

Mike Manalac: Oh, only on episode three. So no spoilers, [00:06:30] but.

Isaac Heller: No.

Mike Manalac: No.

Isaac Heller: No spoilers, but just a shout out to everyone because we we interview people. A lot of them are in New York or San Francisco or London, but we've got a shy town rep here. Um, the bear is a great show. It's about a it's about a chef in Chicago and his wacky life. But there's so many Chicago isms that are underappreciated. The foodie culture. Um, music like Wilco and, uh, I think Pearl jam [00:07:00] is in there anyway. Um, I remember I went. I went to Lollapalooza back in the day. That was good.

Mike Manalac: Oh, wow. Nice.

Isaac Heller: Yeah.

Mike Manalac: Like your wild days. Isaac?

Isaac Heller: Yes, yes. Yeah. When I had hair and all that good stuff. But anyway. So. So just a shout out to Chi Town now. Mike, do you feel like you feel like you're settled in? I know it's a bigger question, but are you. East coast. West coast or right in the middle? Chicago's the the the your your jam now.

Mike Manalac: Uh, I do feel like Chicago [00:07:30] is has checks a lot of the boxes for what I want as far as big city. City amenities, like a train system. You can walk everywhere. Um, it's a great downtown. Good sports. Uh, sports town. It's not too far from my home in Baltimore. Uh, and a lot of fortune 500 companies are located here. So the the employment opportunities are really big. And even even like the school system, like you can actually raise a family, buy a house, send a kid to [00:08:00] school in the city, and there's a lot of cities. You can't say a lot of those things. So I really like it for now. Whether I'll be here forever, I doubt it. Forever is a long time. I could actually see myself maybe having like a home base in Chicago, or maybe a house, maybe somewhere I can fly to in the winter when things get rough here. Uh, I could see that being a cool thing for me in the future, but for now, I'm pretty comfortable. It's a cool city.

Isaac Heller: That's awesome. I'm a big fan, you know, I'm from I'm from Dallas. [00:08:30] So all of those things resonate with me. You know, center of America, you can get places. Airport. We get too hot in the summer. You get too cold in the winter. You know, we could we could split the difference, but that's awesome. Okay. Got it. So Walmart and Google. It's not just fortune 500 that's like fortune five or fortune. It's up there.

Mike Manalac: I guess. Yeah.

Isaac Heller: It's up there. I mean, those are those are world class companies and organization. Uh, full disclosure [00:09:00] at, at Trulia, uh, where I work, uh, we work with Walmart and their accounting team. And, you know, you think of Walmart as a stodgy old brick and mortar retailer. No no no no no. Yeah. These these guys, these teams, they know what they're doing. They're innovative. They support small businesses and startups like us and big ones alike. So maybe I mean, tell us a little bit about the, I don't know, interesting or I don't know, cool [00:09:30] things about being on the accounting team at Walmart versus Google. What's the vibes?

Mike Manalac: I mean, well, first of all, I think you hit the nail on the head, which, you know, when people think Walmart, most people just think about the brick and mortar store and their experience there as if, you know, I'm a greeter in the store. Uh, plenty of those around. That's not what the the corporate accounting side is like. Uh, it's interesting though. It's, it is working on the e-commerce side. So basically Walmart.com is [00:10:00] is similar to Walmart in that it offers everything and it's things that are in stock at stores, in stock that are in warehouses, things from third party marketplaces. You can you can buy photos, you can buy uh, you can buy checkbooks, like all the stuff that you would never think, like, even exists anymore. So there's all these revenue streams, all kind of big expenses. Hopefully a big, nice, uh, check getting cut to truly in every month to for, uh, the partnership there. But but, [00:10:30] uh, yeah, I mean, I think for me, I really wanted to, to get into working with big data. You know, the bigger clients have have tons of data. And let's face it, the way the world is moving, data isn't getting smaller. Like it's getting bigger, bigger, bigger. And, uh, I felt like Walmart was one of those places where I could get, you know, exposure to tons of different revenue transactions, tons on the expense side.

Mike Manalac: Um, a lot from the [00:11:00] working through cutting through data and, you know, doing different things with, um, coding and SQL and different workbooks and things like that. So as far as, like the cool projects I worked on, probably my most favorite was spinning out the first iteration of Walmart's two day shipping initiative. Um, so they basically were, you know, not trying to get market share from Amazon before they gobbled it all up, essentially. And Walmart, when I had joined, had invested, [00:11:30] I think, 2 billion in growing the e-commerce business and then included like growing the e-commerce accounting team as well. And they really put their foot forward. We had like five acquisitions in the few years that I was there, uh, buying other e-commerce startups. And we really wanted to go toe to toe and match Amazon with the two day shipping and not just say, hey, I can ship it to your door in two days, but say you could go pick it up in the store today. I could ship it to your house in two days. Um, [00:12:00] or, you know, a bunch of different variations. That thing returns and things like that. You can take it back to the store. Things that like leveraging that online footprint and the brick and mortar footprint.

Mike Manalac: Um, so it was a very cool time. But for the most part, Walmart is and is still but it was traditionally brick and mortar. So the shift to e-commerce was a pretty big shift. Um, but I got to spin that up and that meant like getting subscription. Subscription revenue was new for Walmart, [00:12:30] getting subscriptions to what they had called Shipping Pass at the time. It's been rebranded, I think 3 or 4 times now. Um, but kind of spinning that up and being able to talk to execs and higher ups about, you know, hey, this is what happens when you give a free trial. Just because there's a lot of users doesn't mean there's a lot of revenue. And just because there's a lot of people paying you, a lot of that revenue for subscriptions is deferred. So don't expect to see that hit your your revenue the way that maybe you think. And, uh, you know, [00:13:00] that was a new concept for the company. So I got a lot of it, got a lot of attention from all the right people. So that was probably one of the one of my favorite projects to work on. But man, there was so many things, uh, moving super fast. And at one point we had acquired Jet.com, which was an e-commerce company on the other side, new Jersey.

Isaac Heller: Or New.

Mike Manalac: York. Yeah. Hoboken. Yeah. The other side of the river in, uh, from New York. Yeah. And, um, they came in and were running the show, basically taking the reins for the e-commerce [00:13:30] team. So we were like, moving like a startup with the pocketbook of a fortune one company. And what a what a crazy experience that was. So I have nothing but good things to say there. And top talent. Like I was working with people from Amazon and Nike and they all came from the big four for some reason. They were all from UI in the accounting team. It just happened that way. So yeah, it was a ton of fun. And, you know, to get back to your question about how that's a little different at Google, you know, leaving e-commerce to [00:14:00] the, you know, leaving e-commerce to a business that's that's driven by ads was quite different. Walmart actually does have some ads, ads, products, like if you're flipping through the electronics page and you look to the side and you see a Samsung ad, Walmart's cashing in on that. So I wasn't I wasn't like new to ads as far as when I, when I moved over to Google. But, you know, Google's a beast when it comes to ads. You know, it's the the number one game in town in the online advertising business. So [00:14:30] big learning curve there. But I'd say similarities where I continued to work with like really top talent. What I thought was probably the most different was that a lot of the accounting team was was able to like, write scripts and run workflows, and everybody kind of knew SQL, whereas I kind of came from a Excel only background, which probably a lot of people in the accounting game.

Mike Manalac: Right. So that was the first time seeing people writing SQL code on the accounting teams. And [00:15:00] it really opened my eyes to, wow, I can actually do some automation self like homemade automation. And uh, I've been nonstop doing that with, with myself and my team for the last seven years. And, and that's been really fun. But Google has a lot of unique characteristics as to how they they look at developing people, how they push people, the the openness to creative ideas and challenging the status quo. That not that I didn't see that at Walmart, but a lot of what I see at Google, I [00:15:30] have a feeling is unmatched in in some of those areas and and. Yeah. So I couldn't be more happier with both of those with both of those choices. But Google really offers a lot that somebody like me, who wants to do more creative things and also do the accounting stuff, I don't want to be locked in a back room. I want to be working with cross-functional teams and different departments and things like that. Uh, I get all of that at Google. So I think that's a really cool thing that that comes from working at one of these big corporations. You're [00:16:00] working with all these really talented people, and there's incredibly interesting projects going on all the time.

Isaac Heller: That's awesome, because I feel like sometimes, you know, from the outside it's like, oh, corporate account, like almost like it's like the C word, you know? But if you think about it, what you just talked about at Walmart, they launched something. You guys launched something that you could, you could explain to your wife or your friend or someone at a cocktail [00:16:30] party. So it's like it's like tangible. And they had to do this thing from a front office perspective. But the accounting, the back office had to be aligned by launch time. So I don't think people get to the involved in like these, these big launches, these big initiatives that drive massive, massive outcomes for the companies. That's pretty cool. You mentioned, uh, Amazon, which you're right, a lot of people don't realize Amazon has one of the biggest advertising businesses in the world. [00:17:00] And I'm sure Walmart, you know, is a subset. They obviously have more brick and mortar. But, um, I just think that's interesting. We, uh, at Trulia, where, uh, we've traditionally been an AWS shop, you know, confession. Sorry, I love I love Google. My sister worked at Google. She worked for GCP during, you know, the the early rising days. I got a lot of friends in Mountain View. But, um, you know, we win AWS at the beginning of Trulia. And and then when we started working with Walmart. You know, they said, well, [00:17:30] what do you guys hosted on? We said Amazon. They said, no, you're not. Like what? So so we we we we did spin out a Microsoft Azure instance by the way. We got to do a Google instance. You know it just so happens you guys are also in the cloud business. But it was just funny to see that fierce rivalry between Walmart and AWS or Amazon. It was like it was like, no chance. And I know, I know the same thing happens with Google. [00:18:00] Like if if we were to work with Google, they would be like, no, you're not running on Azure, you know, or.

Mike Manalac: Whatever.

Isaac Heller: Whatever the heck it is. So it's funny how how much how somehow, you know, the retailers and the hyperscalers overlap. Um, but that's awesome. So I think what's what's cool to me is Mike from accounting, by the way, is that just to explain everyone, that's your hashtag. I'm sorry. That's your. That's your handle. Mike from accounting. [00:18:30] Correct?

Mike Manalac: Yeah.

Isaac Heller: You got a you got a website, which we'll get into. Is it an alter ego or is it you?

Mike Manalac: Oh, alter ego sounds. Alter ego sounds really cool, but no, I mean, it's it was a easy. I thought it was kind of fun and easy to remember. Way to have a website. And I used to work, you know, I was mentioning working with a lot of different teams, and sometimes you'll hear somebody be like, oh, can you get back to Mike from accounting on that one issue? And, [00:19:00] uh, I don't know. I thought it was kind of funny. So I kind of went with that. But essentially it's just my website about like the stuff that I put out there, but, you know, alter ego maybe sounds cooler, like a, like a Jekyll and Hyde thing, maybe could be going on.

Isaac Heller: It's amazing. It's amazing. I just wanted to have a little fun with it because I think it's brilliant. And, um, and by the way, I'm looking at no flux given. Is that your is that your book or a podcast?

Mike Manalac: Yeah, that's, um, that's a playbook I put out. It's [00:19:30] all about. Well, it's about helping accountants land their dream job. And I kind of chronicle some of the things that I learned going from the East Coast, West Coast to Midwest. And I had interviewed at Amazon and was fortunate to receive an offer, interviewed at meta and. Right. And X and Tesla and Nike and Salesforce and Uber and a lot of people in accounting don't really even think about, oh, I guess people at those companies need accountants and they all [00:20:00] do, you know, and I, I applied for those jobs. I went on these interviews. I could tell they were all really cool. And most of them turned out where I didn't get the job right. And that was part of a lot of the learning that I put into that playbook. But I was fortunate to eventually hit a stride and learn some things along the way and get multiple offers. That's where that playbook came out, came from, and I was just getting a lot of questions of like, hey, any advice? And it's like, well, where do I start kind of thing. And over time, [00:20:30] I had a doc I was sharing with friends that would ask, and I just turned that doc, added some fun pictures to it and formalized it a little bit and and put it out as an e-book on my website. So that's where that came from.

Isaac Heller: It's awesome. So I'm giving you a shout out again Mike from accounting. Com and we're going to, we're going to unpack some of this stuff because I just I love it. Um, but before we do you know I'm thinking I'm thinking of the, the accountant right now. The [00:21:00] corporate accountant. Maybe they're at the big four, whatever they are, and they've got a voice, you know, they think they're a little funny. Or maybe their friends think they're funny. They want to express themselves. But I feel like there's a little bit of fear, you know? Or maybe a little bit of something's holding you back. Self-conscious, you know, whatever it is, you know, my in my job, I've, I've got to be, you know, I'm a founder and I'm a CEO, and, um, you know, I, I have [00:21:30] imposter syndrome. Um, but I also recognize that I have a role to play, and I'm encouraged to post on LinkedIn about whatever I think. And I'm encouraged to do these podcasts and stuff like that. And I feel I feel very fortunate, you know, to, to to get kind of that have kind of the fun. But I feel like founders voices are a little bit overrepresented and entrepreneurs are, and especially in tech, [00:22:00] are screaming really loud and noticed and on and stuff like that. But there's a lot of people, I think, who have a lot of interesting voices out there. And so I just I hope people listen to you and hear from you. You don't have to be a CEO or the highest partner or CFO or whatever, and hopefully you will one day, whatever you want to be. But, um, when you think of like Mike from accounting does, does working at Google or Walmart [00:22:30] or whatever it is hold you back? Do they encourage it? Do you how do you just kind of lean in and take that step and start putting some of your good humor, you know, out in the air, right on the interweb? How do you how do you jump in?

Mike Manalac: Yeah. I mean, you bring up a good point. And and part of it is it's an overrepresented voice from founders and entrepreneurs. Great stuff. But sometimes if, say, you're just starting in public accounting and you're looking to see hear [00:23:00] from other people, it's a little intimidating to only hear from the founder who just got like a $5 million seed funding type thing, you know what I mean? And yeah, exactly. But you don't hear you don't hear enough about, you know, there's other people that are not that that are still doing cool things and you don't hear about it, but why don't you hear about it? So that's sort of why I said, you know, I'll jump in and share some of my thoughts, because I kind of got a little annoyed with the fact that it [00:23:30] one, it was an underrepresented voice. And then two, a lot of what you hear about accounting is it's boring and accountants are boring and you know, this and that and nobody's some people are correcting the narrative. But I think everybody I think everybody should take it upon themselves to do their own part to correct the narrative. And I'm one of those people that I always have an opinion and something to share and plenty of complaints, don't get me wrong, but I like to follow that up with like [00:24:00] a solution or something like that.

Mike Manalac: And I found myself being that person who's saying, oh, like, these guys got it all wrong. But then I wasn't out there trying to correct it. So I was doing the same thing that I hate, which is complaining about a problem and not offering solutions and things like that. So, um, that's what got me involved. And I think a lot of other people should, should maybe look at it that way. Like, you don't necessarily need to be a founder, but you probably have thoughts and opinions to share. And there are going to be [00:24:30] people that want to hear, hear from you. Um, so for the people that are intimidated, I think on the flip side, at one point I thought, because I'm not really on social media outside of like LinkedIn, stuff that I feel like could benefit me in my career. But you won't find me on TikTok or Facebook or Instagram, which I feel like I've benefited from that. And it wasn't until I was really ramping up layoffs were happening in all industries that I realized that, you know, there's [00:25:00] really two people out there, and you're either going to be visible, and if you're not visible, then you're invisible. And a lot of people that you're talking about that have not came out and shared their thoughts or opinions, they're, you know, they're going to be invisible, and that's not a good thing.

Mike Manalac: And one day there's going to be AIS going to transform the industry. Um, outsourcing is going to transform the industry, and it's going to get hyper competitive. I'd [00:25:30] even say it's already hyper competitive. And do you want to be in the bucket of people that are visible and are sharing your thoughts and opinions with the world, or do you want to be in the bucket of people that you never have heard from? You know, so I almost feel like you can't not do it by not doing it. If you think you're being safe by by playing it safe and kind of laying low, I think you're actually doing yourself a disservice. So not only should you do it just for the fact that you have ideas to share, get out [00:26:00] and share them. Why not? Uh, I think you should do it because it's going to get super competitive. And if you want to be the one who's got that great job for the rest of your career and not the one on the flip side who's really struggling to stand out. Then, you know, you got to take the path of being visible and not invisible. I don't know if any of that makes sense to you.

Isaac Heller: I love it. No, I love it. And, you know, it's it's a bit of a warm, fuzzy feeling in this, in this fear, [00:26:30] this, you know, kind of gray cloud of AI and automation and outsourcing. I mean, we we've all felt it. I started my career as a travel agent. Um, so that was like right before something called Expedia and Kayak, you know, just and by the way, Google Flights bought ITA inventory. So that was a that was another. But it just like I, I lived through this stuff and um, we still have travel agents and also a lot of my friends love travel and they work at tech companies that start off as [00:27:00] agents. So, you know, I'm, I'm, I've seen a couple of these iterations, but it's the warm fuzzy feeling is this idea that you're saying, Mike of, hey, things are going to change and you need to stand out beyond just whatever it is. I don't know, um, that, that, that financial close that you do or that, uh, revenue testing that you do. What whatever it is that you do, you need to stand up. And so hopefully that [00:27:30] change pushes people not just to upskill. I think that's the thing that's thrown around is upskill, upskill, upskill, which is which is cool. You new skills, we should all learn new skills. Hopefully we shouldn't come from a place of fear. We should come from a place of curiosity. But this idea of of finding a voice is interesting.

Isaac Heller: Like if you want to stand out, it's not just about the accounting skills you have, it's about bringing your voice to the forefront. And I think that would be cool. You know, there might be a point where [00:28:00] there's if if people hear this, Mike, there's going to be all these accounting influencers and all the tech entrepreneurs are going to be like, what the hell? You know, we used to. We used to be the court, but, uh, that'll be that'll be a fun day. So I was kind of thinking one of the hard things I think about, uh, post, I'll use just posting on LinkedIn because that's really the start, is you post something, you post a video, you post a thought. I've [00:28:30] posted something so many times, and I've gone back an hour later and I got like three likes and I just deleted it. I was just like, oh, nobody. Oh, this is so stupid. Nobody, you know, like, do you feel like, do you feel like, ever self-conscious that you're trying to self promote or sell yourself? I think a lot of people struggle with that. And then maybe another thought is like, do you think of it more as I'm, I'm putting out this information to help other [00:29:00] people. I'm putting out this information because it feels good to me. You know, it's like journaling, like, how do you how do you think about this idea of, I don't know, self-promotion or putting that stuff out there.

Mike Manalac: Yeah. And that's where, you know, I kind of made a face when you you mentioned an influencer, right? Because, sure, there's plenty of accounting influence. I personally don't consider myself one. Mainly from the there's a cringe factor that comes with that. And from, you know, where people think, hey, look at me, [00:29:30] look at me, look at my, my rich lifestyle and my vacations. And by the way, buy this sponsored product because you, you know, I like it and you should like it too. But that's actually different than what most people that you're actually a lot of people that you're seeing on LinkedIn, or at least what we're talking about, which is not really trying to like, push some other company's products. Right, and be all flashy for the likes. For the most part, I'm really just sharing my thoughts, my opinions, [00:30:00] uh, kind of doing it my way in a way that I don't, don't find Cringe. And does it suck when you only get three likes? Yeah, but at the end of the day, are you doing it so you can get a bunch of likes and and become an influencer? Because if not, which I'm not, then I got kind of got to just say, well, who cares, you know, and delete.

Isaac Heller: But LinkedIn do you delete? Do you go.

Mike Manalac: Back. You don't have I've deleted I've only deleted two posts, both of which people [00:30:30] had commented that it was semi controversial. Oh, and can you come on.

Isaac Heller: Give me one. Give me yours.

Mike Manalac: It was a well, I'll tell you, I don't think it was that bad and I. I feel like I did the right thing. I'll give you a snap judgment. Okay. Well you won't see it anyway because it's deleted. So even if you go to find it. But it was, uh, it was a cartoon of a guy and it well, it said, uh, look at that form on accounting. And it had a guy going like this checking out a form of a female figure, [00:31:00] but it wasn't a female figure inside the female figure was just a bunch of tax return lines. So it was like, check out that form. I like it. I thought it was funny. A lot of people thought it was funny, and one person was like, that makes me uncomfortable. And I was like, well, maybe I should have been more sensitive. I like to think that I'm sensitive, have enough emotional intelligence to not do that. So it's a learning thing. But no, I don't delete it. I wouldn't delete it because it doesn't perform well or anything [00:31:30] like that. Um, but I think that's part of the process, you know, and like, like I was saying like the drawings that I'll put out, I'm not really that's not really self-promotion.

Mike Manalac: I like to draw for fun. And I found a way to include that in, uh, to touch on, like, accounting topics, like, I'll read a, I read a lot, I'll read an article about some accounting update or some accounting news, and a funny image will pop into my head, and that's what I'll draw and put out there. So for me, I'm already reading [00:32:00] the article I already like to draw. I'm just sharing it. I'm not saying, hey, people from New York are come get me to like cartoon for your your, uh, magazine or come buy my stuff like I'm not doing any of that. So I actually don't do a lot of I don't look at it as self promotion. There's a little bit of, yes, this is me, but a lot of it, like with the hand-drawn cartoons, that's me just showing that like, hey, I'm a real person. There's an authentic [00:32:30] aspect to this. This is not an an AI image that you'll see on 99.9 9.99% of everybody else's post. This is a real thing that a real person drew. Uh, so part of it is me understanding that authenticity is going to be at a premium soon. All you look around, it's all I slop. Everything is.

Isaac Heller: Everything. It is everything.

Mike Manalac: Even even these, this podcast, I'm assuming you you know, you'll have this out in a video form. A lot of the [00:33:00] reason I like doing these things to one day, maybe they'll have the Isaac and Mike avatar that they can make this without it being real. Yeah. But for now, I mean, people want to hear your real voice. They don't want to hear a message that you probably ran through ChatGPT and to come off as an expert. So I think, like for me, I don't I don't necessarily look at this as self-promotional because I'm not really promoting anything. I'm just chatting about stuff that I my thoughts, my opinions, and like how I feel about the accounting profession [00:33:30] and things like that. And that's what's different than somebody who has their own business or is an entrepreneur, because you kind of have to do these call to actions all the time, and that's part of the game. And people don't want to be sold to, you know, people don't want people that are salesy. So you probably run into, you know, you're you're pretty smooth about it now or you name drop it a little bit, but you're not really pushing it like you have to. You have to kind of be slick, slick about it or you're going to turn people off, right? So that's [00:34:00] why you won't see me bragging about, hey, I'm about to go to my third vacation internationally next month. I'm not posting any of that. You don't see pictures of of my expensive dinners online or, you know, trying to, like, show that I'm somebody that's super cool. Like, to be honest, like, I didn't come from money, I didn't go to a fancy school. I didn't get referred to any of the companies I came in. I was just a regular guy that kind of worked his way up through the system to get [00:34:30] what I wanted. So I hope that that comes across when people see me is, is that it's more of the regular guy, not the guy who's trying to make you think that he's a guru or something. You know.

Isaac Heller: I, I love it, and I think I think you captured it. I mean, people, people need to, to feel like it's almost like the, the entrepreneur or the guy selling or what's the what's Kendall Jenner? Who's the makeup? Who's the one that sells makeup on Instacart. Something. Jenner.

Mike Manalac: Uh, yeah. [00:35:00] The youngest Jenner.

Isaac Heller: One of the Jenner's. Right. Like she's a.

Mike Manalac: Billionaire.

Isaac Heller: So so I never I never heard of her when someone was like, do you. She has the most followers. Um, but, you know, the the regular voice. I don't I don't think you're regular. I think you're exceptional. But the regular voice is under heard and underrepresented. And you're right. You know, we we like, I guess, when it comes to sales, I think the [00:35:30] best sales happen organically. Right? Like, even if we're meeting our wife or partner or whatever, there's a little bit of I'm sure there's a little bit of jockeying and salesmanship that goes in. But yeah, you end up coming together and you know, it's like, oh, good thing, good thing we met. And you know, but the best stuff just comes organically I think, no matter what. So I love it. You made me think of a website I used to love. It's [00:36:00] still around. You're a going concern.

Mike Manalac: Oh, yeah? Yeah. Shout out to Caleb. Nice. Nice and snarky, man. Shout out to. I feel like they don't maybe get as as much, uh, props as they deserve, to be honest, you know?

Isaac Heller: Well. It's great. Uh, so. So founded by Caleb, um, Newquist, who's now at gusto and is a great voice. He has a podcast.

Mike Manalac: I didn't know that. Wow.

Isaac Heller: Oh, my, oh, my. Fraud. They love. I think [00:36:30] he's with Blake. I think it's. But anyway.

Mike Manalac: Um.

Isaac Heller: So he he founded Going Concern, and it was really just to bring a little bit of humor to the accounting industry. So it's it's snarky. I think it's the right level of snark. Um, yeah. But at the at the end of the day, they ended up being one of the top jobs board. Right? And so it's kind of that.

Mike Manalac: Yeah.

Isaac Heller: Like it's kind of that organic idea of like, hey, someone needed to like someone needed to make fun of all this Big Four saving the [00:37:00] World kind of webinars and stuff, and, um, and, and once they they captured interest, they were able to help people find jobs, which I thought was was pretty cool, you know, a little bit like the onion. It's the onion as far as you could go for accounting, but I think it's owned by another media company. Now, can I, can I run through a few of your cartoons while we're here?

Mike Manalac: Yeah, yeah, let's do it.

Isaac Heller: What? Um, first of all, what's your [00:37:30] favorite? I'm looking at Mike from accounting. I'm looking here. Here's one partner by 33. Right. Um, like becoming a partner. But here's another one. Big Four or bust. These are cartoons. Big Four or busts. Um, Hollywood accountants.

Mike Manalac: That partner by 33 was like a a A cowboy baby, right? I think the big the big four bust was like a bunch of balloons popping, I think. Right. Oh, [00:38:00] this is great.

Isaac Heller: Mr. Owl. Okay, so Mr. Owl says, how many, how many busy seasons do I need to do? Okay. Or no, it's a it's an account a CPA talking to Mr.. On the tree saying how many more of these busy seasons do I need to do. Um, you got a favorite I could call out.

Mike Manalac: Oh, I, um, to be honest, no, I don't think I don't think that I do. I, I have some that I think are more fun to draw. [00:38:30] A lot of times those are the ones that people don't really like. You draw these? Uh oh, yeah. Those are all.

Isaac Heller: Hell, yeah. You drew this. You drew this monkey on the monkey bars.

Mike Manalac: Yeah, yeah.

Isaac Heller: It says the CPA is a high bar.

Mike Manalac: Yeah. So stuff like that. Yeah. I mean, that's where I'm saying, like, I'm having fun with it. The other thing, too, is I think trying to find a way to merge maybe your interest outside of work with something, your profession, [00:39:00] that's like a a pretty good way to, like, find more fulfillment. You know, when you hear people say, bring your whole self. That sounds really corny, but I think the premise is, look, if if you like to kind of draw stuff and you know, you're, you're a CPA, maybe you can merge the two and put out something funny that like, Isaac gets a kick out of on the other side of the world. You know what I mean?

Isaac Heller: I'm loving this. Um, yeah. There's this notion of [00:39:30] work life balance, and it's kind of like, you know, it's kind of like forces us to think that that's work and that's life, and you gotta balance it out. And I think it's okay to admit that we spend a lot of time doing our jobs, and it's okay to intertwine accounting with something we love, like drawing or something else. So yeah, I think that's I think that's pretty cool. And you [00:40:00] know, you mentioned something about our podcast like, this is our voice. This is us. This is our personality. No robots. Yeah. Take it or leave it. And it, you know, the way you made it sound was like it could be in a dusty archive. One day of two guys talking, and, um, and illustration is is kind of like that too, right? Illustration is already there. But, you know, someone who can draw some of these cool cartoons are pretty cool. All right. So a few [00:40:30] things I mean this is I accounting intelligence. We got to get into the slop. Um, actually, we don't even have to talk about AI. But I got to ask you, you've seen both sides audit and, you know, kind of big accounting. What's your what's your crystal ball look like these days? When you think about the future of accounting, maybe just the next ten years. Um, pick a couple of areas and whether it's the people, the skills, the tools, you know, all that stuff. What do you. What are [00:41:00] you thinking? What are you seeing these days?

Mike Manalac: Oh, man. Dude, you think I know what's going to look like the world is going to look like?

Isaac Heller: I mean, I could talk, I could talk, but then, you know, they.

Mike Manalac: Have some theories. I have some theories. I feel like I feel like, who knows what the next year the world versus. Yeah. Uh, as opposed to the like, everything is changing. It's crazy. But, yeah, I got plenty of theories on where I think the the accounting world is going when it comes to ten years. I think finally you'll start to see, like, I think the stat [00:41:30] is 75% of CPAs are at retirement age. They're just not retiring, right? Like it's expensive out there, you know, and they're making good money. So they're sticking around. But ten years out I think they'll be forced to retire. That's going to leave a lot of opportunity for like older millennials like myself. And Gen Z will probably be in middle management plus like, and we'll probably get boosted up there. I think that's when you're going to see a real change in, you know, if anybody [00:42:00] thinks there's no industry norms across accounting that that are and firms that are resistant to change, I think you really need turnover at the top levels and some of the younger generations to move up. So within ten years, that's definitely going to happen. Um, as far as the A stuff goes, I think it's going to have, you know, a lot of people will say, is it going to take your jobs or is it going to make us stronger? As if it's like, yeah, you gotta choose one.

Mike Manalac: I think it's probably [00:42:30] it's probably going to be both. It's going to take a lot of entry level jobs, but it's also going to make, uh, as a pro at making everybody more productive to be able to do more and shift into more of this advisory space that accountants have been trying to get into for years. And instead, you get this I only hear from the accountant once a year thing. That's not like an advisor, right? So I think that'll definitely help transition, uh, accountants [00:43:00] into that role. I also feel like, for the most part, the profession still values technical chops, right? Where do you stand on, like, understanding complex technical accounting topics and things like that? Um, that's going to be commoditized. I mean, anybody who can run, uh, is decent at a prompt is going to be able to sound like a subject matter expert. That's why none of the things you'll ever hear me say is about a technical accounting thing. One [00:43:30] that's probably the boring, the more boring side of the accounting piece. But like two, I already know. I know that stuff. I've proven that. I know that stuff that's not going to set me apart Because a first year associate who can write a ChatGPT prompt can probably spit out something even better than whatever I come up with off the cuff.

Mike Manalac: Um, so I think a lot of, a lot of the premium that we've placed on technical chops will kind of diminish a little bit. And instead we're [00:44:00] going to start to value things like, uh, more soft skills, human skills, like, can you can you lead a team? Can you lead engaging meetings in a virtual global workforce? Um, multifaceted critical thinking. Can you connect dots? Do you have the emotional intelligence? Do you have the creative thinking? Some of those things that really AI isn't going to solve those problems for you. At least not, I don't think, in my lifetime. So finding out, like what are the human skills that we can focus [00:44:30] on is something that I do a lot of. And that's a lot of what what we talked about previously of, you know, I'm doing something authentic. This is authentic. You and I having a real conversation, right? Not a, you know, upload an article and spit it through a podcast generator notebook. Lm to to sound like it's two people talking. No, these are really two people talking. Uh, I think there will be a premium on that. I think accountants that are only good at the technical stuff, but not having [00:45:00] the soft skills and the creativity that I think the future generation of accountants need.

Mike Manalac: Um, I think it's going to be a big shift in the type of skill sets that are desired for accountants. Um, I also think the education system always lags. So you said ten years, but I bet you it'll be five years. Let's say in five years, the accounting profession has figured out this is what we need accountants to do and how they work with AI and what value they add in addition to AI. [00:45:30] It's going to take the education system five years from that to start to implement it, which means there's going to be a chunk of the workforce that's coming in, learning the old way of accounting, and they're joining a workforce that's the new way of accounting. And I have a feeling that that's going to be some rough waters there. Uh, and, um, I don't hear that talked about all that much, but and then lastly, I'll kind of say, as much as we don't want to admit it, I think there's [00:46:00] going to be a lot of phonies in the accounting space that maybe got through college, got good marks. Maybe people think they're an excellent communicator in written form. Then you ask them to give a presentation to an exec, and they fall flat because they don't have eyes to crunch. And really, they didn't have those the right skills, uh, inherent skills, because they basically outsourced all of their creative thinking.

Mike Manalac: And I think there's studies that [00:46:30] show, like, if you outsource too much of that critical thinking to AI, you actually experience a cognitive decline. So I think that there's going to be a lot of people that take that as a shortcut and then get burned down the line. Whereas I think most of the people who are thinking about it, right, are using these AI tools to be more productive, to use it as a collaborator, to be more efficient for the things that aren't worth their brainpower so that they can repurpose that time and do something more impactful. I think those are going to be the ones that [00:47:00] are taking center stage, but I think it'll end up being a big chunk of the workforce. That is probably a little bit of, uh, a phony situation. And the CPA brand will. Yes. Now it says, okay, you know, accounting. But I think in the future it'll be even more valuable because it'll communicate. This guy's the real deal. He walked into a Prometric center four times, passed all these exams. You can't use AI on those exams. So at least I know this [00:47:30] person's the real deal. I don't know if a college degree communicates that anymore, to be quite honest. So, uh, man, I don't know. Maybe I hit.

Isaac Heller: My.

Mike Manalac: Predictions there.

Isaac Heller: Oh, no.

Mike Manalac: I would love to see what you think.

Isaac Heller: Well, I have a lot of thoughts, but you communicated it very clearly, especially in terms of, more specifically, the general gap, uh, generational gap that we experience. I mean, there's a there's a historical partner compensation model that, uh, is a bit of a cream rises model and more [00:48:00] work gets pushed down, down, down, down, down and nothing against anyone. But I understand where those incentive structures go. That's, that's at the firms. And yeah, I think you're right. It's the it's the famous Hemingway quote. How do you go bankrupt gradually then quickly. You know, it's like we're we're living we're living in a moment where we feel like things are gradually changing, and at some point they will quickly change. That doesn't mean that it's like a trap [00:48:30] door that we all fall through. It just means that we need to start moving our skills towards where that, you know, change is going to be headed. I love what you said about the CPA. Just we'll wrap up here in a minute. But like a quick just note to to maybe end on we've gotten a lot of calls from accounting professors lately at Truliant. Right. Like, you know, like companies can request a demo. [00:49:00] Well, they're requesting demos, which I've never seen, and they're starting to talk to us and they're saying, look, we've got a curriculum challenge.

Isaac Heller: Like, we are hearing from our friends in the law school and in the business school, you know, that, like, everything's changing in their industries and they're getting feedback from these law firms or alumni. But like, we're going back to the accounting industry, which is heavily it's Big Four centric and we feel like [00:49:30] we're not getting the stuff that can equip our students for the next generation. And that's really flattering and exciting to me because, like, I'm the I'm the tech entrepreneur. We don't get to do a lot of feel good stuff, and I want it to be a teacher that I was a teacher for a year, an English teacher. And I just think that's kind of a cool contribution. Where the innovation is, is not just for the money or the seed or the ABC. It's like, no, we're going to try to innovate and [00:50:00] help the industry and maybe give some feedback. Back to the, the students. Um, and uh, yeah. So maybe I'll kind of end on that. That's an interesting one. But look, I know Mike, we're. Yeah, we're coming up on the end of the hour. Just, I don't know, one line of advice or inspiration for the for the group here as we wrap up. Give it to me.

Mike Manalac: All right.

Mike Manalac: Um, along the same lines that we've talked about too, like in this whole conversation. But [00:50:30] I do feel like we should start addressing the skills gap. Yes, I think Isaac will go get the education system in line. Right? That may take time. Firms can do training, but maybe they won't. You mentioned people talk about upskilling, but they're not really pinpointing on what to do. I do encourage everybody to realize the accountant skills that you had in the past are not going to make you a successful accountant in the future. I'm getting a glimpse of that now. Working with a company that is very on the forefront of AI, and [00:51:00] I can see that. And I encourage everybody to think about, you know, how can they change and not only adapt and, and be, you know, a big user of these AI tools, but also think about where you can excel, where I may be struggles and lean into those like human skills. I definitely think that my favorite one is embracing creativity a little more in accounting. And you see this with podcasts. That's kind of why I do some of the drawings. Um, the [00:51:30] last World Economic Forum study came out and they said the two top skills for the future of the business profession. One was analytical thinkers. Everyone in accounting should say yes to that because we already locked that in. The second one was creative thinking, and not a lot of people associate accounting with creativity.

Mike Manalac: And I think that's going to be a big one. So I would just say embrace some of these new skills that you think are going to be more relevant in the future. It's not only going to make you [00:52:00] a better professional and future proof your career, it's going to make the profession more exciting. And maybe some of the people that are turning their back on accounting because they think it's so boring and this and that, they're going to start to see, wow, there's cool things happening in the accounting space, like what Truliant is doing. And this firm is creative and this and they're all everybody's talking about innovation because they are. And I think if we start leaning into that innovation. Uh. Bottoms up. Right now, I think a lot of it is coming tops down. [00:52:30] We gotta innovate. We gotta innovate. You need creative thinkers to innovate, right? To do something new. So embrace that side of it. And I think it'll transform the profession and it'll also future proof everybody's career. So I'm excited to see where it goes. I definitely think, uh, things are on the up and up, regardless of what you read. And I think you're a big part of that too, Isaac. So I'm incredibly happy we got to chat about some of this stuff today.

Isaac Heller: Totally. Mike. We had some fun. It was fun.

Mike Manalac: Yeah, I think so, I think [00:53:00] so.

Isaac Heller: Thank you for for coming on Mike Manalac Mike from accounting. And maybe I'll see you in Vegas next year or somewhere around.

Mike Manalac: I.

Mike Manalac: Like it, I like.

Mike Manalac: It. Maybe before then that'd be even better.

Isaac Heller: Definitely. That'd be great. Good to see you, Mike. Thanks everyone for listening and watching. And we'll see you next time.